Nick's Rogue Jedi V2! W/ New RRG Discussion

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nickthebug7777 1331

Here is the RRG Discussion over on Mandalorian HQ: https://mandalorianhq.wixsite.com/swdestiny/blank-2/2017/11/02/Overview-of-the-Recent-Errata

There is a tier list in the article as well as a description of this deck.

Thanks guys! -NickTheBug; Mandalorian HQ

35 hozzászólás

amustoe 47

I'll get the ball rollin on this one, I was late to the party on your last version. In my testing the Luke's Protection, has provided good flexibility against Running Interference. One addition that I've enjoyed is 2 copies of Take Cover to either replace a foundation of shields for Qui-Gon's ability if you get vibroaxed. This also provides more gray cards incase Kylo2 is getting frisky. For me damage out of hand with Synchronicity, Riposte, and yes even Take Cover with all the Luke's Protection shenanigans is what makes the deck shine. I also include a copy of Jedi Robes which is a great card to mulligan for turn one- grab the shields then overwrite later. Are you counting on seeing less of Kylo2 post-errata? Good work sir!

nickthebug7777 1331

@amustoe I agree I love Luke's Protection and Synchronicity. I took out Riposte because I felt like, with shields relevant and mill decks less common, I am going to want to keep my shields to soak damage.

I thought really hard about including Take Cover but it got cut before I started testing. This deck has so many good cards that could go into it and I'm having trouble whittling it down as is. Do you have a suggestion as of what to cut? I like the card but can't justify taking anything out.

Jedi Robes is another card that I love. I didn't include it because, although the focus is nice, it is only great on the first turn. The overwrite rules change made the card worse as well because you can't overwrite with it and then with something else.

I'm currently seeing much less Kylo2 in my meta. He is making a comeback with Kylo/Grievous but as of right now I have a high win rate against that deck.

Scactha 881

Looks real good. I could play it out of the box. I´m only curious about the Lightbow. Is that to raise chances to trigger ranged on Force Misdirection?

nickthebug7777 1331

@Scactha thank you! This version is much more refined and much better than the last I think.

As for Lightbow, it gives us a second powerful three cost upgrade that we can draw or get with Lightsaber Pull. It is basically a replacement for the second Rey's saber which was overkill with Lightsaber Pull. Also, like you said, it gives us another ranged side for Force Misdirection and our first special side in the deck. The special serves as shield hate with Vibroknife gone and it gives us a shield side that we can slap on Kanan for Synchronicity after Qui Gon is dead.

Fresck 233

Hello, I don't understand the use of 2 cards that might cut for more events :

  • force illusion : You have not only ancient light saber but Also the possibility to use otoh gunga for a battlefield, which is not that bad of an idea. Not to mention the deck is full of shields ^^
  • it binds all things : I do understand ressources are important for events and upgrades, but most of your events cost 0, so the few times you roll a ressource, it will count as an action for it binds all things

That could make you some room for more mitigation or focus like light saber training which seems extremely powerful with force speed! (Where you can focus a +3X and +2X on ancient and shoto for example and resolve your dice full of melee)

I really like the add of the bow, i'll give it a shot :)

nickthebug7777 1331

@Fresck Force Illusion is in here for grindy games that go long. Also there are decks (looking at you Sabine/Ezra) that can burst up to 13 damage turn 1 with virtually no mitigation opportunities.

It Binds All Things is in here because the goal of the deck is to get out as many upgrades as possible. It pays for itself easily and the action is only spent when you play it. After that, you use it when you play your upgrade. It is better than resolving a resource because that resource has the potential to be damage with a reroll.

I extensively tested Lightsaber Training and it was... terrible. It is so situational. It only worked for me once in 25 games and it increased my damage output by only 2.

Leddon75 152

It binds all things is good if you get it at start.. after that you ll probably use the card just for reroll. Every new set, the card discussion is coming back : ) At the end, it s probably matter of preference. Deck looks like, i want to survive with both characters as long as possible and then wait for a kanan focus to give huge damage with pleinty of upgrades. The major problem i would see, and that s why i dont like luke s protection, fearless package is because it slows the deck.(and takes events slots) Problem with hero control, is that you need your die to be rolled (guard, force misdirection) Sound the alarm and Heroism are good for this. Probably overconfidence would help or deflects (meta call ? ) Personnally i hate RNG, that s why i prefer concentrate and lightsaber training. Having one force speed more and concentrate is better imho than a 2 cost upgrade. The ancient Saber +3 wants à focus by Kanan, Force Speed special with Concentrate/lightsaber training works as a force strike ; ) But again it s a matter of preference. Do i want to be able to roll 12+ damage with Rng or have 7 or 8 guaranted. Last card i really like on heavy blue upgrades especially with Shotos and Ancient Lightsaber (50 % sides are melee) is close quarter assault that totally ruins many decks plans. The deck is really strong : ) I m building one at the moment, and i hope it ll perform as good at yours. I dont have lots of games played with it in Eaw. But my main was Qui/Rey on Sor ; )

nickthebug7777 1331

@Leddon75 yes, cards like It Binds All Things come into question with each set. I'm pretty set on including it here because the advantage if I have even 1 by turn 2 is huge.

The goal of the deck is to keep heat off of the target as long as possible while you pump the other guy full of upgrades.

Luke's Protection is slow, yes, but I find that I claim often despite this. Really it comes down to specific turns. There are turns where I'll just decide I'm going to let the opponent claim. On those turns, I use Luke's Protection, I trigger my Ancients, and I reroll until I like what I see. On other turns, I may decide I need to go fast and I just won't use Luke's Protection. I find that the damage output from that one card makes it worth including. It also lets you stall an activation when facing Jango (and Jango/Phasma is pretty common these days).

I don't, for the most part, feel like I need more control. With shields and such, the only card I miss in this department is Deflect against Sabine. I'm not sure what to take out of the deck to add in Deflect and I'm really liking the build right now.

RNG is pretty lame, I agree. With that being said, I extensively tested the cards you mentioned and was disappointed. The reason being, I think, is that you can use each of those cards 1 time and they suck up your resources for a turn. If you had played an upgrade, it is going to last until the end of the game and get used 4+ times. Between rerolls and Kanan focus we get plenty of consistency and our damage output can increase every turn by playing more upgrades.

I love CQA. I have no idea what to take out for it, though. The deck runs like a well oiled machine right now and I'd hate to disrupt that. CQA also helps Sabine by dumping her ambush upgrades in the discard.

I also played Qui Gon in SoR. This deck has a different strategy in mind. Qui/Rey was supposed to action cheat damage and stay alive. Qui/Kanan needs to focus on pumping out upgrades. If your opponent survives to the late game, you will usually have Kanan loaded with Rey's Saber, Lightbow, and Ancient or Qui Gon loaded with 2 Shotos and a Fearless. Either way, the game will be over quick

GenghisDon 100

I'm having trouble with understanding what makes Kanan Jarrus - Rebel Jedi a better choice over Rey - Force Prodigy. Her resource sides seem like a much more useful outcome over Kanan's focus and she keeps the damage sides streamlined with QGJ. I think Kanan has a small edge on speed, but not that much. What don't I understand??

nickthebug7777 1331

@GenghisDon your reasoning is backward on this. I think Kanan's focus is MUCH better than Rey's +1 resource side. Most of the time you wont't be able to resolve that resource die but the focus can flip any die to a 2 or 3 damage. With Kanan's ability, you can even immediately resolve the focused die.

Kanan does not have an edge on speed. Overall, the only reason to play Rey would be if you wanted her action cheats.

Her die is considerably worse than his in terms of usefulness and his ability allows you to resolve the mixed damage so it doesn't slow down your turn. In order to do Rey's 2 melee you need another base melee side in the pool. This is not the case with Kanan.

Finally, Kanan helps with Force Misdirection by giving you ranged and disrupt sides.

Setzuen 445

As someone that runs eKanan / Rey / Padawan, I would definitely agree that Kanan Jarrus - Rebel Jedi has the better dice. Although, I would disagree that her dice are "considerably worse". They are "marginally worse" at best. Both have 1 resource and 1 blank, so they cancel each other out. +2 melee is obviously worse than a flat 2 melee, but only slightly, because triggering a +2 melee in a melee-only deck is a breeze. Rey - Force Prodigy's discard side is worse that Kanan Jarrus - Rebel Jedi's disrupt side. I'm not a fan of either in this type of deck, but I agree that resources are more valuable than cards, as you get fewer resources per round. 1 melee is just flat-out better than 1 ranged. Sure, the 1 ranged can proc Force Misdirection, but 1 melee can be resolved with your melee modifiers, which will always be a looming problem. Having no flat melee in a pool full of modifiers is the worst. You can also use melee with Makashi Training (which I know you don't run, but you should be), Guard and Synchronicity. Finally, I'd argue that Rey - Force Prodigy's +1 resource side is on-par with (if not, superior to) Kanan Jarrus - Rebel Jedi's focus side. Focus is an effect that looks good on paper, but mathematically it's often a detriment. To focus a dice, you are CONSUMING your dice with the focus symbol on it, just to alter another one of your dice. Sure, you've altered that dice to something good, but the total number of dice in your pool has decreased by 1. Resources on the other hand always offer value. The richer you are, the faster you can pump out powerful upgrades that stick around for the rest of the game. A rich deck will be able to pump out 2, or even 3 upgrades per round, whereas a poor deck can only play 1, scraping by on the 2 resources they get during the upkeep. A rich deck will always beat a poor deck, because the cards that they an afford to play is overwhelming. Regardless, the reason to run Rey - Force Prodigy isn't her dice, it's her effect. Comparing the two based on their effects goes in Rey - Force Prodigy's favour, imho. Kanan Jarrus - Rebel Jedi's resolution cheat is great, but you can actually resolve anyone's dice for free, provided they're being resolved alongside dice with the same symbol. In that sense, all resolutions can be cheated. Cheating actions will always speed up your deck. It allows you to outpace your opponent, resolve first, claim first and snowball the game on tempo. They're both great cards. Kanan Jarrus - Rebel Jedi has better dice, Rey - Force Prodigy has a better effect. There's no clear winner.

eric212 1

@nickthebug7777 played the deck three games last night. It would appear that Fearless isn't necessary, and somewhat sluggish. Usually get's overwritten anyways. My opinion is remove it for another weapon. And then Reposte is still an option with. As long as It's not agro.

nickthebug7777 1331

@Setzuen I agree with a lot of your post and disagree with some of it.

I disagree that the 1 range is worse than the 1 melee. I think that it is better because you don't lose resolve speed and you can do cool things with Force Misdirection. At least for this deck, I've never had an issue resolving modifiers larger than a +1 on Shoto so I don't think that's something we need to worry about.

I liked Makashi Training in SoR but it isn't nearly as good now. I can't find a single card in the deck that I would take out to include it. Do you have suggestions?

Focus is one of the best symbols in the game. It is made exponentially better by Kanan's ability. Sure your consuming one of your dice, but your also turning another to the ideal side. For the resource side on Rey, you need to have a second resource side in order to resolve it. This means that you are consuming not 1 but 2 dice. Sure your getting 2 resources for later but your also getting no closer to your win condition in the short term. My deck acts like a rich deck often have 6 upgrades out by round 3. With so many upgrades, the focus is gold because you can turn the one that didn't cooperate to damage and resolve all of them.

I think even ability could go either way. There is no denying that Rey has an awesome ability but Kanan can also resolve a resource and immediately play mitigation. Or, if your opponent rolled tons of blanks, you can focus to the blank and Force Misdirect in the same action.

I think they are very close. But I believe that the clear winner is Kanan.

nickthebug7777 1331

@eric212 thanks for testing the deck! I agree that Fearless isn't amazing which is why I dropped to one copy. Its mainly in here because Fearless + 2 Shotos on Qui Gon is 3 damage per turn on activation. It also redraws your Luke's Protections. I probably wouldn't drop another copy.

I wouldn't add another weapon, but Deflect and Riposte are cards I would like to find a place for.

eric212 1

@nickthebug7777 I'm pretty sure I'm going to take out the Handcrafted Lightbow for Luke's Lightsaber. Also, Do or Do Not is probably going to come out for Riposte to test it out a little. I've noticed with this deck I've had an abundance of resources. So, I'm not sure what I want to do with that either. Other than that, deck played three more games locally today. It's still undefeated. Going against a couple different decks. I'm not 100% sold on the force speed either. It's okay, but just okay. Will keep updated as I move along. (Only hero deck I've been interested in, so It's the only one I have built of my 4 decks lol)

Setzuen 445

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the winner of Rey - Force Prodigy vs Kanan Jarrus - Rebel Jedi. I agree with @GenghisDon, but not to the extent that I'm baffled as to why you'd even use Kanan Jarrus - Rebel Jedi while Rey - Force Prodigy exists.

I don't think that Force Misdirection is a good enough justification for valuing ranged over melee, compared to added consistency with modifiers, Guard and Synchronicity.

I also don't rate focus nearly as highly as you do, because in the best case scenario, you'll consume your focus dice AND it's target dice, to deal a maximum of 3 extra damage (often only 2). Dealing 3 (or often only 2) damage across 2 dice is an average to sub-par result at best, not to mention that even if you focus a dice to a +3 melee, your opponent may remove/re-roll it, and that's like a 2 for 1 deal for your opponent. Energy gets you much closer to your win condition than focus, because energy buys upgrades, and upgrades add dice permanently, rather than simply modify them for a single round.

Makashi Training could replace any upgrade in this deck, because it's literally the best upgrade in the game. The amount of consistent damage it adds for 2 resources is just bonkers, let alone the control potential. I would recommend Fearless and Handcrafted Light Bow, as the former adds far less value each round, and the latter is a weaker Luke Skywalker's Lightsaber, and your mana curve actually improves with these changes. I'm not a fan of Force Illusion either, but at least they're cheap.

Salmiac 1

@Setzuen I do agree with you about focus in general. Just have to say that kanan doesn't have that drawback since your opponent never gets the opportunity to remove the dice. Then again, focus helps remove some randomness from the game if you run a few dice with high damage output. I dislike force illusion because it makes me cringe to discard all the awesome cards I have in my deck :)

nickthebug7777 1331

@eric212 I prefer Handcrafted Lightbow to Luke's saber because all of the sides are free and unmodified. The special also deals with opposing shield decks. With that being said, I have tested Luke's saber only a little. Please let me know your results!

I have Do Or Do Not in this deck for 2 reasons. The first is that I love it with Qui Gon's die and being able to turn a harmless resource into 3 damage for the kill with no time for removal is awesome. The second reason is because I, like you, would replace it with Riposte and I feel as if Riposte is not as good. Riposte is a great card but I haven't seen a ton of mill decks in the new meta and most of the time I want my shields. Even if I'm going against a mill deck, Riposte still can't do a full 3 damage because you want to leave a shield on Qui Gon to activate the pings.

I agree that in the late game you have tons of resources. The cost curve is low so that you can ramp in the early turns. When you get to late game, use your resources to kit up Kanan with weapons. Kanan + weapons in the late game is killer.

@Setzuen I fully agree that the focus side is only pretty good overall. With Kanan, though it becomes awesome because you lose the drawback that your opponent can mitigate the die. The nice thing about it is it makes your damage more consistent. If you rolled out Qui Gon and Rey and got 2 melee, +2 melee, blank, and +1 resource you would be pretty sad. If you rolled Qui Gon and Kanan and got 2 melee, 2 melee, blank, and a Kanan 1 focus you would be happy. Without discarding and without taking an action you have increased damage output by 2.

Yes, resources get us closer to a full board. However, as @eric212 said above, this deck becomes incredibly rich. I have created the cost curve such that this is the case. With that in mind, we don't need to resolve resources and rarely do unless we can't reroll the die.

Makashi Training is far from the best upgrade in the game. There are many other awesome upgrades (looking at you Z6 Riot Batton). This isn't the point, though. The upgrade really doesn't fit in the deck. Yes, damage output could be higher with Makashi than with Fearless but Fearless combos well with the rest of our deck and card draw is very valuable in this game. Handcrafted Lightbow is one of the best cards in the game (and, I believe, far superior to Luke's Saber because nothing is payed or modified and you have the same number of damage sides) so I wouldn't remove that either.

I agree, Force Illusion isn't my favorite card either. I included it because it stops melee and range and it hurts opponents that run modifiers.

@Salmiac yes the focus side, on Kanan specifically, makes the game much less random and increases our win rate.

I agree that losing cards sucks. Despite that, staying alive for another turn is better.

Schattenriss 1

@nickthebug7777 I really like this deck. I am going to test it.

At this stage I also want to thank you not only for the deck but also for your analysis of the top tier decks. Well done!

nickthebug7777 1331

@Schattenriss please do! Please let us know your results and any changes you end up making!

Thank you sir!

LordVampire 1

I have play tested your old version of this deck and everytime I draw Fearless, I'm not sure what to do with it and end up discarding it for rerolls. 2 resources feels too much for what it does and you will want it on Qui-Gon for his abillity, but you also want Shoto on Qui-Gon for the shield it generates and Shoto only works with blue weapon upgrades. You'll want Ancient Lightsabre on Qui-Gon as well, as he will be the primary target and the same goes for Force Illusion. So often I have 3 upgrades on him and Fearless is not worth it over the other upgrades.

nickthebug7777 1331

@LordVampire I agree that Fearless isn't as good as many of us thought when it was first introduced. This is the reason I have dropped down to 1 copy. It is really good with Luke's Protection and with Qui Gon's ability. The main reason it's still in here is because getting 2x Shoto + Fearless on Qui Gon guarantees 3 damage on activation.

It is one of the first cards I'm looking to cut after my testing last night but I think it is a solid include.

Scactha 881

Fearless is good with Ashoka as you get double effect or with Luke to capitalize on his existing draw ability, but that´s other decks.

nickthebug7777 1331

@Scactha that is very true. When people play prized Prized Possession on Ahsoka it also makes her stronger.

nickthebug7777 1331

Recently won a 20 person tourney with this build. Faced: 2x Kylo/Greivous, 1x Sabine/Ezra, 1x mirror, and 1x Jango/Phasma. Went 5/1 losing to 1 of the Kylo/Grievous in swiss.

Schattenriss 1

I played against eSabine/Ezra (2times, 1 loss and 1 win) and against eKylo2/Grievous (2times, 1 loss and 1 win):

I have to say that Kylo2 is tough...

nickthebug7777 1331

@Schattenriss thank you for your data! Sabine Ezra is the other deck that is the top of the meta (along with this one). Shields help allot and you need to take Sabine down before she gets Second Chance going. Mulligan for weapons and Synchronicity to deal damage from hand and take down Sabine fast.

Kylo2 is tough being mono blue. You need to get Kylo down by round 2. Synchronicity and Lightbow/Ancient help allot. Grievous isn't really a huge threat so if you have 1 char left versus Greivous you should be able to win.

Schattenriss 1

@nickthebug7777 I had 2 test games against eKylo/Grievous. This time 2-0 win. However I made small changes to the deck: I removed the one copy of fearless and replaced it with the 2nd copy force speed. In Addition I removed „do or do not“ (both copies ) and substituted it with 2 copies of „take cover“. Just small changes, but for me the deck felt better.

Schattenriss 1

I am also not so sure about „it binds all things“. If you have both Luke protections in play, you gonna draw less upgrade or in the worse case none (because luke protection is placed on top of your deck. If I draw“ it binds all things“ afte luke protection a third card can’t be used for mitigation.

nickthebug7777 1331

@Schattenriss those are interesting changes. Fearless feels like the least necessary card in the deck right now and I've thought of taking it out. I wouldn't personally take it out in favor of Force Speed but I don't find Force Speed to be as useful as some people find it. I have 1 copy of Fearless left because activation damage wins a lot of games.

Do Or DO Not can definately backfire but I love it with Qui Gon and it is a good finisher as a last attempt to salvage a game. Take Cover serves duel purpose being protection against Kylo and also giving you a base shield for Qui Gon ping. I would love to find a place for this card and Do Or Do Not may be the card to remove. I'll certainly test it. Thanks for the data!

As for It Binds All Things, it is one of my favorite cards in the deck right now. I find that if it is in my opening hand that I win the game almost always. I also have quite a few upgrades in the deck so I rarely have an issue with that.

Schattenriss 1

@'nickthebug77' what I like about force speed are the following aspects: zero costs, can always be played. The focus and the shield helps. The special helps to get characters rolled out after upgrades have been played. Many mitigation/protection cards in this deck require your dice to be rolled (guard, caution, force misdirection). Against kylo/grievous you Need to be fast, but you also want to play the upgrade. In addition I use force speed on kanan, so

Schattenriss 1

With Force speed on kanan, I roll ihm out first. That means dice are in the pool (for caution, misdirection, guard) and I may get two action to play an Upgrade and either mitigate or activate quigon.

Upgrades are going to go on Qui-gon (Shotos and one ancient Lightsaber), any Second ancient lightsaber goes on Kanan.

But I understand that there are many views on this.

Schattenriss 1

@nickthebug7777 assuming you would take out fearless: what would you swap in?

nickthebug7777 1331

@Schattenriss I love Force Speed and I agree that the deck needs to be fast in some matchups. Despite this, I don't feel as if we need 2 copies. You certainly don't need 2 in play at once because 4 actions is overkill and will get you done with your turn while your opponent is still going. The only reason I would include 2 is because I want to see them early. But I don't. In the early game I want to start my ramp so the cards I want are: Shotos, Ancients, It Binds, Caution, and a mitigation piece. So I think one copy is the sweet spot.

nickthebug7777 1331

I will probably leave Fearless for now because it has won me countless games. If I were to take it out, however, I'd probably put in Deflect. I'm not sure about you, but my meta is dominated by Sabine, Phasma2, and Kanan. All of these characters have a ranged side that can be deflected. It isn't super necessary and I don't think we need 2 copies because Force Illusion will do a good job. One copy would be nice I think.

Alternatively a copy of Riposte as a finisher would not be a bad idea.